The Gray Divorce Podcast: Episode 57 Dealing with Family and the Holidays with Kathleen Shack, LMFT
Andrew Hatherley: You’re an adult child of an older divorcing couple. You and your siblings are used to gathering at mom and dad's house for eggnog, caroling, and a big Christmas dinner. But what if dad's not in the house anymore? Or what if the house has been sold because of the divorce? What about mom's new boyfriend?
Andrew Hatherley: How do we navigate these [00:01:00] relationships and traditions during the holidays? Here to help us answer these questions is Kathleen Shack. Kathleen is a licensed marriage and family therapist, divorce coach, and mediator, and has been working with couples and families for over 24 years. She is the founder of Family Solutions Counseling in Alpharetta, Georgia and a native of Atlanta. Kathleen earned her B. A. in Psychology from the University of Georgia and Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy, Family Studies from the University of Kentucky. Kathleen is also a fellow member of the Amicable Divorce Network, of which I am a member, which helps people find an alternative path through divorce other than the destructive litigation process.
Andrew Hatherley: Kathleen, welcome to The Gray Divorce Podcast.
Kathleen Shack: Thank you so much for [00:02:00] having me. I'm so glad to be here.
Andrew Hatherley: Well, I'm very happy to have you on, especially during the festive season. And I think it's an appropriate time to, to discuss this subject, and I'd like to start by discussing the unique challenges of dealing with families in the holidays as it applies to our audience who are older divorcees.
Andrew Hatherley: So, we can assume that, you know, there are no minor children involved, well, with gray divorce there might be minor grandchildren involved. What do you see as some of the some of the key challenges here in dealing with the holidays, particularly for older divorced couples?
Kathleen Shack: I think like you were saying a moment ago, there are a lot of adjustments in terms of traditions and what is going to happen with family traditions that the family.
Kathleen Shack: We have before a divorce happened, and so I think it's a good idea to start talking with all the adult Children start finding out from them. What are some traditions that they might want to hold [00:03:00] onto or some things that they might want to do differently this year? But it's interesting to figure out what are the new traditions going to be?
Kathleen Shack: So everybody might brainstorm about what they would like to do differently this year, but it's going to be a lot of changes. So, I think it's important to talk to all the different family members and get their thoughts on what's going to be important going into the holidays.
Andrew Hatherley: Yeah. You mentioned the traditions and, you know, with an older divorcing couple and adult children, it's quite possible that some of these traditions have been in place for many years.
Andrew Hatherley: And you can see that there may be some a lot of sentiment attached to doing particular things. How would you, how would we best navigate the fact that maybe this year we're not going to be, you know, caroling on the porch of the house because the house has been sold?
Kathleen Shack: I think if the family can decide, first, where are the holidays going to be [00:04:00] held?
Kathleen Shack: That is going to be the first key to figuring out what a potential new tradition might be. So let's say if the original house has been sold where everybody has spent the holidays for the past 20 years, then that in itself is going to start off a new tradition because maybe the adult children want to be the ones who host the holiday, or maybe it's going to be visiting their parents at their new There we go.
Kathleen Shack: So I think whoever is going to be in charge of the holiday, they get to be the ones to then start the conversation about What do we want to do?
Kathleen Shack: Where do we want to do it? And what's that going to look like this year?
Andrew Hatherley: You know, you mentioned who's going to be in charge and you could see that, let's say the, there was a Christmas dinner or whatever your faith or method of celebrating, but there's a [00:05:00] gathering at one house and perhaps mom might have.
Andrew Hatherley: Traditional gender roles, not always the case, but we're dealing with an older demographic might have taken the lead in, in putting together the dinner and maybe the adult daughter would have been involved. I know from previous discussions with psychologists about the effect of gray divorce on adult children that there might be some changes here that perhaps the adult daughter might find herself in.
Andrew Hatherley: I don't want to say saddled, but that's the word that comes to my mind. Saddled with perhaps more responsibilities or chores. That's something we must adapt to. I think.
Kathleen Shack: Right. Oftentimes it is the adult daughter that tends to take on the role of hosting. And so sometimes that's a welcome change and they've been waiting for their turn to be the one to host for the holidays.
Kathleen Shack: And other times it's not a change that's welcome. So, I think it's important to talk with the kids and find out, does anybody want to host this year? [00:06:00] And what would that look like? And then maybe even divide it up. Somebody could host something on, say, if you're Christian on Christmas Eve and then another child could host something on Christmas day.
Kathleen Shack: So, you kind of find a way to get everybody involved if it's not the original. Generation hosting it,
Andrew Hatherley: Right? I think the key, the immense is about communicating and discussing the holidays and I would assume that the further in advance this could be done of the holidays, the better.
Kathleen Shack: Right. And I think it's a good time to also have everybody look at possibilities of doing a potluck for the holidays and have each bring their favorite dish.
Kathleen Shack: So that way all the responsibility isn't now on, say, one of the adult Children or potentially on the grandmother who now doesn't have her huge kitchen that she used to have where she used to be able to cook everything for the meal. So I [00:07:00] think people have to be open to being flexible if it's going to be a new year with new traditions happening.
Andrew Hatherley: They are going to have to be a little bit more flexible and of course, divorce often frays the emotions for the people not only going through the divorce, but, you know, the family members, you know, surrounding the couple involved. And with gray divorce adult children, well, they're adults and they've got adult issues to deal with and, you know, potentially they may be dealing with marital issues of their own, which may put, you know, further stressors on their own relationship and thinking if mom and dad can't make it how am I going to get through this?
Andrew Hatherley: And I suppose the holidays just exacerbate that.
Kathleen Shack: Right. And thinking also they may be starting new traditions. Let's say if they've recently gotten married or if they're married, then they [00:08:00] may be wanting to divide time between their parents and their partners parents. And so they were already going to be dividing the holidays.
Kathleen Shack: So then you get a situation if you have divorced parents where now you're needing to include maybe three family systems or four family systems, depending on how many splits there have been in the family. So it can get for people. But again, that's where that, you know, continuing relationships has got to be the key and just encouraging a lot of communication around how do we continue these relationships and what are those relationships now going to look like?
Andrew Hatherley: I think that's so important , that you emphasize the word relationships because ultimately You know, that's what it's all about, is about the relationships, and, you know, the traditions have been born out of the relationships, and I think that if we do carry an attitude of flexibility and openness and creativity, that new traditions can [00:09:00] emerge and if we keep the core focus on the relationships, then you know, some people will be more welcoming and adaptive to these to the idea of new traditions and other people are going to be more stubborn, shall we say, but, you know, ultimately it's very much an individual reaction, but you know, what I've seen in divorce is that often both the parties emerging from divorce who, if it's been a difficult divorce and the families around them.
Andrew Hatherley: They can be quite a bit more resilient than in the face of divorce. There may be a lot of emotions and drama in the initial stages, but gradually we'll grow from it and adapt. I'm assuming you've seen that in, in your practice, how people have grown and adapted and developed these new traditions,
Kathleen Shack: right?
Kathleen Shack: I have seen that. And a lot of what I'm talking about with my clients and sessions right now, since it is so close to the holidays, a [00:10:00] lot of what we're talking about is how can you guys. acknowledge the grief and maybe some of the negative emotions that are going to be happening during the holidays, while also still trying to bring joy and happiness and new traditions into the fold.
Kathleen Shack: So a lot of families right now are trying to figure out how can we balance All of the emotions that are going to be coming to the table. And how can we be there for everybody?
Andrew Hatherley: Well, let's get into some specifics there because, you know, with the heightened emotions, what are some techniques that you might that you might advise our listeners of, or your clients, you know, to, to deal with, you know, these stressors they may be feeling.
Kathleen Shack: I think the first thing that's important to do is manage your expectations. So be mindful that there is a big family system with a lot of feelings that are happening. And so if each person is working on managing their own expectations and hopes for the holiday, that can help. [00:11:00] So if you can manage your own expectations, and then also plan ahead as much as possible.
Kathleen Shack: So make sure there's maybe an open group text or something or group email with the family members where everybody is coordinating the who, what, when and where of the holidays for this year and who's going to bring what, where's it going to be. And I think another big piece. Is if there are new people to be introducing into the system, if that can happen before the holidays, that would be ideal instead of suddenly this new person being thrown in the middle of Christmas dinner so that everybody has a chance to get to know them first and then enjoy their presence, hopefully during the holiday.
Andrew Hatherley: That's such a good point. I was going to bring that up. I think I did mention it in the introduction. What if mom or dad have a new significant other? And I suppose this [00:12:00] is very much going to depend on Probably the amount of preparation time that there has been to introduce this person into the lives, and how receptive the acts are.
Andrew Hatherley: Is to being in the same room and perhaps they won't be in the same room. Perhaps there'll be a separate a separate gathering. How do you, I want to delve into this a little bit more. I mean, as an let's look at the situation from the adult child adult child's perspective. You know, they've dealt with mom 40, 50 years.
Andrew Hatherley: And then there's this new person. What should their mindset be if they're. Not particularly pleased about this new person. I mean, how can they make the situation better, not worse?
Kathleen Shack: I think if it's a situation where the adult child is not pleased with this new person, then they need to keep in mind to respect your elders.
Kathleen Shack: So they need to keep in [00:13:00] mind, this is someone who's very important to their mom or very important to their dad. And so they need to Be on their best behavior so that they're able to really be respectful and thoughtful of their parent. And if they have issues with this person or don't like that this person's around, then that's a conversation to have in private after the holiday is over.
Kathleen Shack: But to try to make an effort for their parents so that their parents sees they're trying and they're wanting to be connected. And again, the whole idea is preserving relationships. So you don't want to spoil a relationship you have with one of your parents just because you're not adjusting well to this new person.
Kathleen Shack: So potentially go get individual counseling about it, or maybe have a family counseling session. If there are issues with this new person coming in. But I think on the day of the holidays, or whenever this person's around during the holidays, you want to really respect and be mindful of your parent.
Andrew Hatherley: I think that's very good advice, Kathleen.
Andrew Hatherley: And it takes me back to what you're [00:14:00] saying about managing expectations. It made me think about, you know, getting out of your own head. It's not just about you. Things have changed for other people as well.
Kathleen Shack: Right. And especially when you think about the holidays, typically people are not in a house with their entire extended family for a week at a time. Usually, people are there just for the meal or maybe for a few hours, maybe 48 hours.
Kathleen Shack: So you can survive 48 hours of anything. So if you think you don't like somebody who's sitting there, just sort of grin and be polite. Use your manners and ask if you can help with things, let your family know you need to take a walk, do things where you're managing your own emotions and not putting it on everybody else that's there around the table.
Andrew Hatherley: You know, it's funny because [00:15:00] the holidays gatherings can be stressful at the best of times.
Kathleen Shack: Exactly.
Andrew Hatherley: And you know, in this holiday season, particularly with a very contentious election and very divided partisan loyalties, I can only imagine. I'm sure I'm sure that it's been some interesting Thanksgiving gatherings. Speaking of Thanksgiving and giving thanks, I think I'm a big believer or increasingly have become a bigger believer as I've gotten older and have gone through my own gray divorce, nine years ago now, is gratitude and, practicing gratitude that, you know, we still have our parents with us here, they may be divorced, but they're with us and what can we do? How can gratitude perhaps enter the equation to help [00:16:00] us get through get through this challenge?
Kathleen Shack: Yeah, I think it's great to do just like people do at Thanksgiving, where sometimes people go around the table and say things that they're grateful for and thankful for.
Kathleen Shack: I think if people are in that mindset during Hanukkah or during Christmas and they're able to really think about what the things are I'm grateful for, what are the things I love about my parents, whether they're together or not. And how can I be there for them during this time and try to make it a situation where everybody is thinking, how can I just show each person here that I love them, that I care about them, then that's going to help stay away from some of those nastier conversations.
Andrew Hatherley: So, you know, I've been studying gray divorce and having gone through it, I've struck by the what I've read about as the economic and the [00:17:00] social penalties of divorce. And I don't think anyone could argue that in general, women tend to fare less well than men. At least initially emerging from the divorce on from an economic or financial standpoint. I think that's well recognized in the divorce community. What I think is less well recognized. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. Kathleen is the social effect, and I know as a man, I find it more difficult to make friends or to maintain friendships with other men than women seem to be with other women.
Andrew Hatherley: And I think in many cases, an older divorced male who might be a little bit more traditional has typically deferred to his wife as the, as a social coordinator. And I see this as potentially being exacerbated during the holiday [00:18:00] season for the male. And this can lead to perhaps more extreme loneliness or disorientation.
Andrew Hatherley: Of course, there are maternal bonds between mother and children as well. What are your thoughts on this?
Kathleen Shack: I think it's important for whichever person has less of a social construct around them. I think it's important for family members and for friends to remember these people. And it does typically tend to be the man, I think, in the situation that hopefully they're going to be invited to a friend's giving or hopefully they have other family members that are going to absorb them and take them in and make sure that they have a solid holiday and they feel loved and cared for during the holidays.
Kathleen Shack: I think for some families, it might be. The woman who's feeling isolated, let's say if the family sometimes would trade off years. And so if it's the husband's family's year, say, even with everybody all grown and older you know, whichever parent is kind of left out in the [00:19:00] cold that year tends to be more lonely and tends to be quieter and more sad.
Kathleen Shack: So if people can keep in mind that they need to embrace everybody and include everybody, if they can, even if that means having your ex over with the big gathering, so that they just feel family and feel connection around them. I think that's important.
Andrew Hatherley: Right. The idea of “let's bring Dad over because dad may be alone.”
Kathleen Shack: Yes. And a lot of adult kids are not going to want either parent to feel alone or feel sad and feel like nobody's hanging out with them. So it's going to be really important to the adult kids, I think, to see both parents involved and making sure that somebody's there for both of them.
Andrew Hatherley: And what's your advice to people, older people going through divorce to kind of keep the adult children in the loop, and to be as kind and considerate of them who are, Maybe in much different situations, adult situations now as you would be for a minor. Because how many times have we heard the situation where a couple's delayed getting divorced until the children are out of high school or until the children are grown up, as if suddenly the adult children are immune to [00:21:00] or immune to being, being bothered about this.
Andrew Hatherley: You know, you could, you can make counter argument that perhaps smaller children are more adaptable and more, I don't know, I'm rambling here. What are your thoughts?
Kathleen Shack: I do have a lot of clients that I'm seeing whose parents are getting divorced. And these are all adult children of divorce, and so they really are struggling.
Kathleen Shack: They're having a hard time when their parents aren't including them in some of the information or letting them be part of the decision making say about holidays. So, I think it is important for the people getting a divorce to keep in mind that. Their kids do have a lot of sentimental attachment to things in the home.
Kathleen Shack: They have a lot of sentiment around traditions. They want to know that both of their parents are going to be okay. So oftentimes adult children want to get involved, say in financial discussions. I think it's good for the parents who are getting divorced to try to keep the kids out of the details [00:22:00] because some of that the parents just need to figure out on their own, no matter how old your kids are.
Kathleen Shack: But I think it's good to give them an overall picture of, Hey, we set up our will. We set up a trust. We set up these different things. You're going to be okay financially, but also emotionally, they need to keep checking in with their adult children because the adult children are going through a lot of emotions and they want to know that their parents are still there for them and that they're not just solely focused on themselves.
Andrew Hatherley: That's great advice. Before we wrap up, Kathleen, is there anything else that you'd like to add with respect to navigating relationships and traditions with family members in the holidays?
Kathleen Shack: I think the biggest thing is just maintain all of those relationships and figure out what our family relationships going to look like, make sure that everybody feels cared for and thought of, and just be open to change as the first few years are happening, as everybody's figuring out what their new traditions are going to be.
Andrew Hatherley: Well, that's great advice, Kathleen. Now, [00:23:00] if our Georgia listeners, because you're licensed to practice in Georgia, correct? If our Georgia listeners would like to find out more about your services and perhaps work with you, how can they find you?
Kathleen Shack: They can find me on my website. My website is www.MFTGA.com. And they can also send me an email if they want to. My email is Kathleen@MFTGA.com.
Andrew Hatherley: Terrific. And I will put both your website and email in the show notes on my podcast page so that people can also find that information there. Kathleen, thank you very much. We really enjoyed having you on today.
Andrew Hatherley: It's been a great chat.
Kathleen Shack: Thanks for having me. I had so much fun.
Resources
Kathleen’s Web Page: www.mftga.com
Kathleen’s e-mail: kathleen@mftga.com